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Pitt Country Pride, What Do You Think Of This Comment?

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8 replies [Last post]

hsmom
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and anyone else that may have reliable info/statistics, etc. I was reading an article on the shooting at yahoo.com, and one of the comments from someone who's obviously anti-gun said this in response to another person's response about how (gun) accidents do and will happen): "That is true, and fatal firearm accidents are much more frequent than repelled intruders. Statistically, there is no case for guns in the home. They make homicide of a family member twice as likely, suicide of a family member 10 times more likely, and accidental death of a child 10 times more likely." The above doesn't sound right to me, but I can't find anything reliable to refute that. Any ideas?
Absolute Power Corrupts Absolutely
The Truth
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Well, at least some of it checks out. From Wikipedia:
Quote:
There were 52,447 deliberate and 23,237 accidental non-fatal gunshot injuries in the United States during 2000.[4] The majority of gun-related deaths in the United States are suicides,[5] with 17,352 (55.6%) of the total 31,224 firearm-related deaths in 2007 due to suicide, while 12,632 (40.5%) were homicide deaths.[6]
So, suicides alone are more than 50% of gun deaths. I also ran so queries against the CDC database (http://webappa.cdc.gov/sasweb/ncipc/mortrate10_us.html) From 1999-2009, there were 7,733 deaths classified as caused by firearms accidents. That's more than double the number attributed to terrorism (2, 927) or drug overdoes (3,590). The problem with guns is how often they are fatal. In the US, in 2010, there were 403 violent crimes per 100,000 people. The homicide rate was 4.8 per 100,000 In the UK, the overall violent crime rate (it's hard to get an exact comparable, because they categorize things differently) is similar, perhaps slightly higher, but the murder rate is not even a third of what it is here.
Retired Military
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The Second Amendment is 221 years old. Long guns and handguns are around 600 years in the making. Bolt action rifles were introduced over 250 years ago. Multi-fire arms usage is over 150 years old. Psycho users of firearms committing random mass murder have only become prevalent over only the last 40-50 years with only isolated incidents. Given these facts, it is a leap from the cliff to claim that guns are the problem. Logic indicates that there is some other factor because firearms have increasingly been under more and more regulation in the last 40-50 years than all the years before. Attempting to compare England/Wales crime rate to the US is an attempt to provide a "cause and effect" scenario which is just flat out wrong. As a matter of fact, when gun legislation was rearing its head in England, there was no increase in firearm crimes. As records indicate, the English government had a fear of labor unionists and a Bolshevik revolution and decided to eliminate the threat of an armed uprising by the people against their power. This is a great example of how and what underlying intent, over-regulation of the Second Amendment rights produce. Disarming the people so they cannot rise up against a corrupt government.
"Obama knew, and now Border Patrol agents, an Ambassador, and American Security Team members are dead.
The Truth
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RM, that sounds nice, but it just isn't true. Here are some early firearm killing sprees (these are all "rampage" killings, not including killings done as part of war, commission of crime, etc) K. Kido & Y. Tani, Osaka, JPN, 1893 - 10 or 11 dead Vladimir Dembsky, Warsaw, Poland, 1904 - 13 dead, 10 injured Ernst Wagner, Degerloch, Germany, 1914 - 14 dead, 11 injured Peter Grachev, Ivankovo, Russia, 1925 - 17 dead, 3 injured Andrew Kehoe, Bath, MI, 1927 - 44 dead, 58 injured (also used explosives) Leung Ying, Fairfield CA, 1928 - 11 dead, 4 injured Kandegedera, Colombo, Sri Lanka, 1936 - 8 dead, 10 injured William Smith, On board LST 172, 1946 - 9 dead, 1 injured Howard Unruh, Camden, NJ, 1949 - 13 dead, 3 injured That's not a complete list, by any means.
Retired Military
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Laws and regulations on firearms only apply to law abiding citizenry. They are the only ones who will adhere to them. Shooters already have a criminal felonious mindset and have no respect for laws much less gun laws. FBI statistics: Sources of guns used to commit felonies: * a flea market or gun show for fewer than 2% * a retail store or pawnshop for about 12% * family, friends, a street buy, or an illegal source for 80% * use of military style semi-automatic firearms was 2%
"Obama knew, and now Border Patrol agents, an Ambassador, and American Security Team members are dead.
The Truth
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Not if you do the sort of half-arsed stuff that usually gets suggested in the US, no it doesn't work. But if you really do it, where mere possession of a firearm is a crime, all of a sudden the supply drys up. The UK doesn't have a problem with illegal guns in the hands of criminals. The illegal guns have to come from SOMEWHERE. If you outlaw almost all sales, there are no gun stores or gun shows for the later black market guns to get onto the street in the first place.
Retired Military
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The Truth wrote:
RM, that sounds nice, but it just isn't true. Here are some early firearm killing sprees (these are all "rampage" killings, not including killings done as part of war, commission of crime, etc) K. Kido & Y. Tani, Osaka, JPN, 1893 - 10 or 11 dead Vladimir Dembsky, Warsaw, Poland, 1904 - 13 dead, 10 injured Ernst Wagner, Degerloch, Germany, 1914 - 14 dead, 11 injured Peter Grachev, Ivankovo, Russia, 1925 - 17 dead, 3 injured Andrew Kehoe, Bath, MI, 1927 - 44 dead, 58 injured (also used explosives) Leung Ying, Fairfield CA, 1928 - 11 dead, 4 injured Kandegedera, Colombo, Sri Lanka, 1936 - 8 dead, 10 injured William Smith, On board LST 172, 1946 - 9 dead, 1 injured Howard Unruh, Camden, NJ, 1949 - 13 dead, 3 injured That's not a complete list, by any means.
I guess the word "prevalent", in the context of this thread and current gun control laws, passes over your vocabulary. If we were considering the entire history of the world, then you are right that maniacal mass murders will exist no matter the tools used (unintended support of the the idea that it is the individual and not the weapon used), however I would research your list a bit more carefully because some of those involve explosives, gardening tools, and normal pistols. That being said, the current cry is about semi-automatic "assault weapons", already illegal capacity magazines, etc. and my point still stands that the regulation of these weapons and handguns has only been introduced since the 1968 Gun Control Act, which is 40-50 years old.
"Obama knew, and now Border Patrol agents, an Ambassador, and American Security Team members are dead.
Retired Military
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The Truth wrote:
Not if you do the sort of half-arsed stuff that usually gets suggested in the US, no it doesn't work. But if you really do it, where mere possession of a firearm is a crime, all of a sudden the supply drys up. The UK doesn't have a problem with illegal guns in the hands of criminals. The illegal guns have to come from SOMEWHERE. If you outlaw almost all sales, there are no gun stores or gun shows for the later black market guns to get onto the street in the first place.
The lunacy involved here is telling. Prohibition dried up alcohol. Did that mean there was no alcohol during Prohibition? No, it meant that only law abiding citizens had no alcohol. Cocain is illegal here. It is a crime to distribute it here. Does that mean there is none because it is outlawed? To even think that you could just snap your fingers and dry up all weapons manufacturing in the world is ludicrous if not a bit utopian hope. You keep mentioning the UK, but there are illegal firearms, they are purchased off the street, and the crime rate in England has expanded by 60% since the total regulation by the British Parliament of firearms.
"Obama knew, and now Border Patrol agents, an Ambassador, and American Security Team members are dead.
WK5
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The Truth wrote:
Not if you do the sort of half-arsed stuff that usually gets suggested in the US, no it doesn't work. But if you really do it, where mere possession of a firearm is a crime, all of a sudden the supply drys up. The UK doesn't have a problem with illegal guns in the hands of criminals. The illegal guns have to come from SOMEWHERE. If you outlaw almost all sales, there are no gun stores or gun shows for the later black market guns to get onto the street in the first place.
TT, the war on drugs would illustrate the fault in your logic. What your side continually misses is the morals that must be found within people, that gives the best protections of all. That war on morality and the traditions that worked for the most the best? The greater weapon and your side has consistently torn those righteous things down. The only thing we find is that the more laws attempting to force... the worse things are getting. You all continue to lift freedom up for the worst of things, and then attempt removing freedom from the best where proper/righteous self defense across the board is made impossible. I am not just pointing at our right to bear arms either. Then you all hate/despise/cheat/try to kill success... as you lift up every dirty thing as if that should lead? Stop feeding on the influences of Hollywood/media then who operate like brainwashing tools. Ban that then? I still bet? This tragedy has drugs in it somewhere and considering this gunman and his behaviors -- his M.O. is just like all the rest that get psyched out of their minds on prescription drugs. And what are we going to do in the end here with all this? Attempt to suggest we can predict before such crimes and accuse people more and more because of what we ASSUME they MIGHT do? Not just guilty until proven innocent as its wrongfully been going on... but then move down that dark, dark road that suggests we can profile and assume what one may do in the future? I tell you all this... we are moving down very dangerous, dark steps here. Trust is already suffering so much, we find it being abolished because lying/cheating/dark habits and yes fear... fostered by too many wrong people... and threats that are getting bolder... This stuff is not just paranoia or conspiracy theory on my part, for it is already here and doing its deed in the reality. We will not make our lives, nation nor world better like this.
"In a sort of ghastly simplicity we remove the organ and demand function. We make men without chests and expect of them virtue and enterprise. We laugh at honour and are shocked to find traitors in our midst." C.S. Lewis
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